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Check this out! (NT3.51)

vulturevulture
edited April 2007 in Software
hehe i FINALLY registered 8)

ok, as a mentioned before
(http://forum.winworldpc.com:81/phpbb2/v ... 819#108819)

, i found this german forum and there was some neat stuff like DirectX9.0c for NT 3.51.

I will try to translate some interesting parts :arrow:
german forum wrote:
DirectX 9.0c l
«1

Comments

  • QQ
    Does anyway say exactly what this driver from Dell is, or where you can get it?

    -Q
  • vulturevulture
    i found Dell driver! It actually supports almoust all usb devices, and yes, you can even hot plug memory stick and NT will recognize it! At least everyone says so...

    click click :arrow: http://ftp1.us.dell.com/utility/R62200.EXE

    if link won't work google for 'R62200 dell'

    the driver is for win nt 4.0, i hope it works with 3.51. Maybe masking will come in handy here ;)

    Edit: There is also a upgrade to that driver supporting usb hubs!
    There are actually 2 versions.

    more info :arrow: http://www.ntcompatible.com/thread.php?id=26620#145762

    you can download it here: http://ftp1.digi.com/support/driver/

    search for i4usb270.exe
  • UglynGreyUglynGrey
    Thanks this was interesting stuff. There are two versions of the shell update though as I recall. The later one was much less buggy than the earlier one.

    I know a user who subsequently fixed a bunch of the bugs in it as well so you can think of it as a shell update 2.1. Links worth posting hopefully I can dig it up.

    Keep in mind that USB driver for NT 4 likely won't work with 3.51. The HAL updates by NT 4 SP6a were unreal in what they could support as compared to the original release. The dell USB drivers were based on the same code Phoenix used to supply card and socket services to NT 4 and required SP5 or higher I believe (might have 4)

    Anyhow it's all fun to experiement with. Ghost is your friend....
  • BlueSunBlueSun
    I haven't messed with NT 3.51 in a while, maybe I might dig it up and see what I can get out of it
  • QQ
    USB on NT 3.51 is an amazzing thought, considering it was in early infancy at the very end of NT 4's tenure (Wasn't it?)...

    -Q
  • vulturevulture
    question - how to replace files COMCTL32.DLL and OLEAUT32.DLL in winnt\system32 directory?

    when i try to copy paste them (new ones) winnt says that those files cannot be replaced because they are used by another process...
  • 16bit16bit
    vulture wrote:
    question - how to replace files COMCTL32.DLL and OLEAUT32.DLL in winnt\system32 directory?

    when i try to copy paste them (new ones) winnt says that those files cannot be replaced because they are used by another process...
    Try going the DOS route, instead of trying to replace them from within Windows, boot to DOS and copy them in that way before they get accessed by Windows.
  • vulturevulture
    i found a workaround for replacing files. i booted into winxp and then replaced files on my WINNT hdd (1,2GB).

    The problem is that every time i replace comctl32.dll, imm32.dll, msvcrt.dll and oleaut32.dll, i get INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE error at bootup :(

    why?

    these are supposed to work flawlessly for seamonkey, firefox support etc.

    what am i doing wrong?

    also, i found out that those ntpatches for winnt to work with newer hardware don't work, when i used those patches i got this error: windows nt can not be installed on this processor (or something like that).

    i have Duron 600

    i tryed with server and workstation and i always get same errors. The following patches DO work (ofcourse): Service Pack 5, Internet Explorer 5, Hotfixes. Installing Win32s also works. Everything else from that point on doesn't work.

    damn...
  • UglynGreyUglynGrey
    vulture wrote:
    i found a workaround for replacing files. i booted into winxp and then replaced files on my WINNT hdd (1,2GB).

    The problem is that every time i replace comctl32.dll, imm32.dll, msvcrt.dll and oleaut32.dll, i get INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE error at bootup :(

    Have you already converted that 1.2 gig drive to NTFS under NT 3.51 ? If so writing to it using XP can cause problems as XP DOES have quirks writing to the original NTFS versions. (though it shouldn't) But it does. That's why you don't convert to NTFS until the very end of the patching process.
    vulture wrote:
    also, i found out that those ntpatches for winnt to work with newer hardware don't work, when i used those patches i got this error: windows nt can not be installed on this processor (or something like that).

    Which patches exactly? If you mean the universal ATA driver I have never gotten it work well. If you mean the new ATDISK and ATASYS files from the superpack I have never had an issue. But to be realistic, I never tried installing NT 3.51 on a Non Intel platform.

    If you describe your hardware exaclty (board, chipset, RAM, Video etc) I can probably describe a way to get it installed and working.

    Cheers
    Ugly
  • vulturevulture
    UglynGrey wrote:
    Have you already converted that 1.2 gig drive to NTFS under NT 3.51 ? If so writing to it using XP can cause problems as XP DOES have quirks writing to the original NTFS versions. (though it shouldn't) But it does. That's why you don't convert to NTFS until the very end of the patching process.

    damn windows xp!
    i'll try tomorrow again having this in mind
    UglynGrey wrote:
    Which patches exactly? If you mean the universal ATA driver I have never gotten it work well. If you mean the new ATDISK and ATASYS files from the superpack I have never had an issue. But to be realistic, I never tried installing NT 3.51 on a Non Intel platform.

    If you describe your hardware exaclty (board, chipset, RAM, Video etc) I can probably describe a way to get it installed and working.

    those NT patches you place to I386 dir before installation. somethin.in_ (something like that)

    that universal ata driver, indeed causes trouble...

    My platform:
    Duron 600
    Matsonic 8308EP mbo (SiS 630/730)
    256 PC133+128 PC150 SDR RAM
    Radeon 7000
    HDD 10GB+80GB+1,2GB (the last one is for NT)
  • Lupinthe3rdLupinthe3rd
    Vulture means the processor patch I think.
  • UglynGreyUglynGrey
    Uhm WOW I can't imagine a more unfriendly environment to try to put NT 3.51 on Vulture. It's not the AMD proc, it's that SiS 630/730 chipset. I doubt we can get drivers for the onboard sound or NIC to work on NT 3.51. But I said I'd try and help so here goes.

    That chipset was a little notorious even on the Win98 platform it was aimed at. It's a budget chipset and it showed. SiS never made reference drivers for that chipset for NT 3.51 because the integrated video on the chip used the AGP bus. At that time Microsoft had not released their "AGP patch" which was really a revised HAL that they only sent out on an as needed basis. I have a custom Compaq HAL for NT 3.51 with AGP support but it only works on certain Intel chipset/ cideo card combos.

    What I'm saying here is I hope your Radeon 7000 is the PCI version or you'll never get past basic VGA (640x480x16)


    That processor error message you mentioned can be handled on some computers by downgrading the frequency during the install process. For example, setting a Duron 900 to an FSB speed of 33MHz, In other words by underclocking the CPU. The BIOS must support this to some degree and this is likely not true on your mobo. I have also had luck in installing NT 3.51 on fast processors by turning off the L2 cache in the BIOS (temporarily). Once it's finished the install I crank it all back on full power with no ill effects. If your BIOS offers the option to change FSB frequency try this method. The chip itself was tested and certified to work on NT 3.51 but the reference chipset was AMD.

    If you can find a way to crank down the processor speed, use the method of installation I referred to earlier from that guide on installing NT 3.51 in a virtual PC by Sandra.

    To summarize, reduce the proccessor speed for installion, use a PCI video card, turn off PnP in the BIOS, reduce the memory to 128 or lower for installion (until you get SP5 installed). And leave the whole partition as FAT until it is totally working.

    I hope it works !
  • vulturevulture
    ok, i left it at FAT and now everzthing works just fine.

    I have one problem, i need SHLWAPI.dll.

    I get error SHLWAPI.dll not found.

    I downloaded that dll from dll-files but it is too new, i need one for NT and don't know where to get one.

    that dll is part of Internet Explorer as i-ve seen so far, i tryed with one from ie5.01 but then i have kernel32.dll error.

    Any ideas?

    Btw. SHLWAPI.dll version must be internet explorer version

    hmm... hmm...
  • vulturevulture
    how to dual boot winxp and win nt 3.51?

    in boot.ini i have:
    [boot loader]
    timeout=30
    default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT
    [operating systems]
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT="Windows NT Workstation Version 3.51"
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT="Windows NT Workstation Version 3.51 [VGA MODE]" /basevideo /sos

    i suppose i have to add something like multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT=C:\something... Windows XP SP2.. ?[/quote]
  • BODBOD
    Just install XP on a separate partition affter 3.51, Xp should do the work.
  • vulturevulture
    BOD wrote:
    Just install XP on a separate partition affter 3.51, Xp should do the work.

    i already have windows xp, i don't want to install it again...
  • BODBOD
    Ahh.

    Well I think that the recovery console can do this too.

    I think Q's the one to ask for that.
  • vulturevulture
    this is what guy that made superpack 351 had in his BOOT.ini
    [boot loader]
    timeout=30
    default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(3)\WINNT
    [operating systems]
    c:\="Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition"
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINNT="Windows NT Workstation Version 4.00"
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINNT="Windows NT Workstation Version 4.00 [VGA mode]" /basevideo /sos
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT35="Windows NT Workstation Version 3.51"
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT35="Windows NT Workstation Version 3.51 [VGA mode]" /basevideo /sos
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT="Windows NT Workstation Version 3.51 NEWSH"
    C:\MININT\BOOTSECT.DAT="Microsoft Windows PE"
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(3)\WINNT="Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional RUS" /fastdetect

    maybe this can help?

    as i metioned before, i have 3 phisical disks, 10GB-Windows XP, 80GB - only for storage (no os), 1,2GB - windows nt 3.51
  • BODBOD
    So the 10GB disk is the one with boot.ini on it?
  • vulturevulture
    yes

    i was thinking of adding something like this:

    multi(0)disk(1)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Windows XP Professional SP2"

    I have on IDE_0- DVD-ROM(master), HDD 1,2GB (slave-nt351), on IDE_1- HDD-10GB (master-winxp), HDD-80GB(slave)

    hope this helps
  • BODBOD 
    [boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect

    That's my laptops, so that might help.
  • UglynGreyUglynGrey
    Vulture, you need to change the disk number reference in Boot ini that's all. The rest is correct. You have physical disks 0-2 installed, so you need to change it to 1 or 2 since 0 is definitely your XP install.

    as to that DLL file, PM an email and I'll send you the correct one from my gmail account.

    Glad you have it working. What are you using for antivirus ?
  • vulturevulture
    i found the dll, now everything is ok... at least for now

    i don't use antivirus... yet ;)

    i have a new problem, every time i open file manager it (file manager) freezes, the window itself shows nothing. i can ctrl-alt-del and close it but thats all i can do...


    P.S. i have to inform that OpenGL 1.1 installer (dll version 4.00) works and opengl itself works (tested on gl screensavers) :D

    i hosted it here so you can download it (~500kb)
    :arrow: Open GL 1.1
  • UglynGreyUglynGrey
    have you patched the ATDISK and ATAPI sys files from the superpack? And before using them you applied SP5?

    look in the event viewer for errors....
  • QQ
    Vulture: I recommend writing this down as you do it so you can remember what works if/when you need to reinstall or reconfigure anything. Also, if done well, it could probably be published!

    -Q

    PS. Also, I'm glad it's working thus far!
  • vulturevulture
    i have patched ATDISK and ATAPI sys files, but it still isn't working. Event viewer mentions only network card, taht is normal since i don't have any network cards installed.

    anyway, i tryed masking yesterday. It really works, you have to place imagecfg.exe to system32 directory AND dllcache directory (c:\winnt\system32\dllcache), then run i ms-dos prompt:

    imagecfg.exe -v 4.00 c:\winnt\system32\ntoskrnl.exe

    at next bootup it will say, windows nt version 4.0 :D

    what do you get doing this you ask?

    most installers for win nt 4.0 work. You won't get: not supported OS type mesagges ;)

    i masked it to 5.00, directx8.1 installer works, it starts to install and then errors start to pop out...

    well at least i tryed
  • vulturevulture
    till i go home (from work) and start to mess around with NT more, here are some interesting quotes from microsoft team.
    But because of the reliability push with Windows 2000, people started talking about how much better Windows 2000 was than 'that old NT stuff,' even though it was the same architecture
    Windows NT 4.0, became known as the Shell Update Release (SUR), another challenging task that would once again prove the benefits of NT's module architecture. "We wanted to build a desktop that had the 95 shell but used NT technology," Lucovsky told us. "We eventually moved the Win32 GUI components and hosted them as an in-process driver. Performance was one side effect. We had had problems taking that API and running it in a different process. So moving the code to the same context as the runtime solved a lot of issues. We didn't have to do dead lock detection for GDI and USER. It was significant work, but it solved a lot of headaches."

    Having this in mind (the bold text), it is clear that win NT 3.51, 4.0 and 2000 have similar (if not almost the same) architecture.

    my next step (after i solve my current issues) is to install (VPC) NT 4.0 and 2000, and try to use their system files in NT 3.51
  • QQ
    Old timers like Fish know about most of that, I think BS and Fish and maybe a few others used to install NT 3.51, install all the updates and then install "New Shell, Beta 2", which was the NT 4/Explorer update/beta for 3.51.

    That 2000 is NT (NT 5), is easily visible within the system itself.

    -Q
  • UglynGreyUglynGrey
    Well the WIN32 API hasn't changed all that much, and the best evidence for this is the fact that firefox runs on NT 3.51 just fine. the WIN32 API came into itself on that platform. But the core architecuture, including instruction and memory handling has changed a lot.

    Fom an arhictecture point of view thinking about plug in managment and security and a half dozen other things, NT 4 really was very different. It wasn't just a shell update per se. I'd say NT 4 by SP5 was the gold standard where radical shifts in the HAL stopped and they started thinking about a driver interface like what we use in Win 2K (and thus is XP). It wasn't fully implemented but was acessible by things like card and socket services and a few others.

    Win 2K broke it down to a modern context, adding nice support for plug and play and Directx and a host of other things. Win 2K is the best NT ever made in my opinion. The fact that MS has dropped support for it drives me nuts. WIN 2K was also way more reliable from a crash protection standpoint. Uptimes were better by far over NT 3/4 and NT 5 was plain faster at everything than NT 4.

    Win XP is pretty and at best is NT 5.1. There is no big difference between the two OS's except for a change in how applications are launched in memory space to keep them from crashing the OS. Yes XP has some nice to have features and when I think about it the only thing I don't want to give up is fast user switching because it let's me test apps with decresingly limited user access to the OS just by changing users. This function is really just a nice implementation of Terminal Services technology at the desktop layer.

    Anyhow, I'd much rather run NT 4 than 3.51 . I can actually do all the things I need to do on a daily basis quickly and safely on NT 4 and I just cannot say this of NT 3.51 no matter how well it's patched and shelled. Sometimes a new version is actually an improvement.

    Ugly
  • BlueSunBlueSun
    NT 3.51 was the first NT I tried, and I fell in love with.

    I installed the new shell update, and played around with it a bit.

    Soon after, I installed NT 4, and I jumped right into SP6a, it seemed like it was almost exactly the same as NT 3.51 with new shell. But there were underlying changes that I didn't get to see.

    Well, actually I supposed XP Home was the first NT I had used, but at the time I didn't know it was NT.

    After using NT 3.51, and 4 and then finally, 2000, I realized that XP was indeed NT... back when I was a complete n00b, I didn't believe that XP was NT. I guess I thought it was an update to 98SE, instead it's basically 2000 + ME (a few features from ME are found in XP but not 2000)
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