NT 4.0 rumors?

edited May 2014 in Software
I found some rumors on the Internet saying that NT 4.0 will refuse to install if you have a hard drive bigger than 1024 cylinders (4GB) and/or you have RAM totaling over 256MB. If you could give me an answer, I would appreciate. Thanks in advance! :D

Comments

  • I installed it on a 20gb hard drive before. You in a format program to format it ntfs because windows nt 4 won't format anything bigger then 2gb.
  • Well, actually it does format NTFS, but it does it in an extremely crappy way (format FAT16 first, reboot, convert to NTFS, fails to convert to NTFS, reboot, converts to NTFS again...)
    So how exactly do I format - oh wait, never mind, GParted is my friend. But still, you said you could do it on a 20gb hd. My hd is 160gb, I'm not sure if NT will install on that big hard drive. :?: :?: :?:
  • Alright, I'll try to explain what I know about this.

    4GB - not a problem, never was. Hell NT4 could even format FAT16 to 4GB, absolutely incompatible with 9x but by using a different cluster size it could do it.
    NOW, there have been issues if NT4 was installed on a partition located AFTER the first 4GB, so ideally in multiboot environments it needs to be the first partition.


    Clearly you don't want to do FAT16, NT4 can't natively recognize FAT32 and can't boot from it period.

    NT4 does have a problem with drives larger than 8GB, but service pack 4 includes a newer ATAPI.sys driver to resolve this. Since 99% of the isos out there are SP1 or RTM you need to provide a floppy disk with the files to load during the text portion of setup.

    The documentation says you're still limited to 8GB for the system partition, this is due to the NT4 version of NTLDR and NTDetect.com, the solution to go higher is to replace them with the Windows 2K or XP boot files.

    This walks you through that http://www.nu2.nu/fixnt4/


    NTFS itself has zero issues with huge hard drives, but NT4 uses an older version of the file system, service packs add support for the newer 2K version.
    BUT, your last caveat is that drives larger than 137GB can't be accessed without using 48-bit LBA, which NT4 never received updates for. An open source atapi replacement was created http://alter.org.ua/soft/win/uni_ata/ that will add 48-bit LBA support to basically every NT version. (I've never used it, but its got directions on how to install it, dunno if you could use this on a floppy too)




    Depending on the setup, lack of floppy drive makes this a multi step quirky process.
    So depending on the hardware here is a vague plan of action:
    Install NT4 on a small FAT16 or tell it to convert to NTFS during setup too, depending on how the old atapi driver is feeling it'll either handle this or choke on the conversion, if it fails install on straight FAT16 for now.
    Once you've got it installed and booted, upgrade to SP6a, if you want the 98ish shell updates that IE4 supplies I suggest you do SP3 or SP4, then IE4 with the shell, then IE6/SP6a.
    Upgrade the atapi driver with the universal one.
    Upgrade the boot files with the 2K versions
    If you aren't NTFS yet, do it.
    If its still booting, all components that talk to the hard drive are updated, GG moment of truth.
    Boot a hirens boot cd or any other partition editor and expand the partition.
  • So what you're saying is that NT 4 can't recognize anything past the 2047th cylinder. In theory, however, I SHOULD be able to install to a partition smaller than 8GB and NT 4 will not complain, right? My point is I don't need such a big hard drive. Heck, it took my one whole year to fill up my old 2 gig thumb drive, let alone a 160GB HD.
  • Yep, NT4 is crappy when it comes to creating partitions.

    Enterprise edition can support up to 64GB of memory but at the time servers could only use 8GB so it's a theory. Most software back then wanted twice the memory then win3.x and win9x for programs. But for workstation it supports up to 4GB of memory but some systems might cap out at 64MB due to NT4's issues to getting the required info from the BIOS. However if it sees 64MB it should be able to use more.
  • I'm saying you aren't limited at all, its just a bit of a process to address the issues that will prevent it from working.

    You have to start with a smaller partition, but after the correct fixes are applied you'll be able to expand it larger. If you want to multiboot then sure go ahead and leave it small, you would in theory never fill 8GB either, NT4 won't run a surprising amount of modern stuff.
  • I use hirens 10.0 cd and format it as ntfs then boot my windows nt4 cd and install it on the ntfs formatted hard drive. then you can use any size hard drive you want plus it save time with all the formatting and stuff.
  • I use hirens 10.0 cd and format it as ntfs then boot my windows nt4 cd and install it on the ntfs formatted hard drive. then you can use any size hard drive you want plus it save time with all the formatting and stuff.
    What specifically are you using on such an old version of that boot cd in order to perform the formatting? I tried preformatting with a partition editor on a newer version and these screenshots are how NT reacted to being presented with it.
    Here you can see it incorrectly recognizing the drive as a 7555 MB disk even though it later correctly showed the actual usable size on the drive (160GB)
    WindowsNTTest-2014-05-22-08-17-00_zps76e997af.png

    It then warns about knowing its NTFS but not recognizing it as a properly formatted, this is due to utilities formatting it with the 2K or higher version of NTFS.
    WindowsNTTest-2014-05-22-08-17-14_zpsef5669f8.png

    Telling it to continue anyways denies you and forces a format.
    WindowsNTTest-2014-05-22-08-17-25_zpsda0ed190.png

    Which then fails...
    WindowsNTTest-2014-05-22-08-22-50_zpsb2e2cf0d.png

    Also are you doing this in a VM? Are you sure the disk isn't SCSI? (Default in VMware)
    That may negate some of these issues as this is more specifically related the ATAPI/IDE drivers.
  • Incidentally, it is possible to make NT 4 boot from FAT32. Install it on a FAT16 drive, load the 2000/XP boot loader, then drop the FAT32 FASTFAT32 replacement from here: http://ashedel.chat.ru/fat32/ over the existing one, repartition the drive to FAT32, and it will still boot.
  • If the driver DOES NOT support SATA, then I'm fscked. The last time I opened the case up I saw a SATA connector.
  • If the driver DOES NOT support SATA, then I'm fscked. The last time I opened the case up I saw a SATA connector.
    Some computers have both SATA and IDE connectors, what's important is the connection of the hard drive you're using...

    Also, some SATA controllers can be operated in Compatibility Mode instead of AHCI, and this setting can usually be toggled in the BIOS. Running the SATA controller in compatibility mode will likely alleviate the need for a special driver.
  • Here is a partial list of features for the universal ata driver

    DMA/UDMA support (up to ATA-133) on known and generic DMA on unknown controllers
    LBA48 (large drives above 128Gb) support
    large drives above 2Tb support (SCSI READ16, WRITE16)
    SerialATA support (SATA, SATA-2, SATA-3)
    AHCI rev. 0.95 - 1.30 support
    NT3.51 (including i386 version), NT4, 2000, XP, 2003, 2005, Vista, 7, ReactOS


    So you should be able to make it work.
    SomeGuy wrote:
    Incidentally, it is possible to make NT 4 boot from FAT32. Install it on a FAT16 drive, load the 2000/XP boot loader, then drop the FAT32 FASTFAT32 replacement from here: http://ashedel.chat.ru/fat32/ over the existing one, repartition the drive to FAT32, and it will still boot.
    That's certainly an interesting one to file away for future experimentation, with the user's 160GB hard drive I wouldn't suggest this route.
  • Last time I installed NT 4 I had to use the NT4 paritioning tool because it had issues with NTFS 3.0. Since NT4 uses NTFS 1.2 it only caps out at 4GB from the crappy partitioning tool. Even if you were to use a updated ATAPI.SYS it only caps out at 7.8GB. However there is a tool to resize it, its called ntfsresize and it comes with ntfsprogs. Sadly its a Linux tool set but most Live distros for rescue use has it. GParted and Hirens Boot CD should have it.

    As for the SATA it can be hit or miss. I've had hard drives that didn't like running in Compatibility Mode.
  • I tested it out some more, and basically what TCPMeta said, you're stuck with a 4GB partition initially even with the SP4 atapi disk.

    I also tested using the uniata driver with a sata disk in vmware, it does recognize the full 10GB drive I created, but freezes when attempting to format it, regardless of what size.

    Long story short, it can still be doable, it will just take many stages to get all the factors accounted for.
  • I installed it on a 120gb hard drive. You need to format it with a partitioning program. Then boot the windows nt 4.0 cd and install it. After install windows going to see only 7.64gb of hard drive. Install service pack 6 then reboot. After restart it's still see only 7.64gb. boot back into the partitioning tool you use to format it ntfs and expand the partition that windows nt is installed on and boot back into windows and it will see the whole drive then. Windows nt can't see past 137gb hard drive. So 160gb hard drive won't work.
  • Windows nt can't see past 137gb hard drive. So 160gb hard drive won't work.
    But it can if the universal ata driver is installed.
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